Wed, 4/21 9:33PM • 1:16:51

SUMMARY KEYWORDS 

Kansas State, land treaties, Kansa tribe, land displacement, reservation, mixed blood, 1825 treaty, 1846 treaty, 1859 treaty, Wakanda springs, spiritual significance, private property, Euro-American settlement, historical accounts. 

SPEAKERS

Ron Parks, Kinsley Searles

Kinsley Searles 00:00

Yeah. So the first question that I have prepared is, what should educators be sharing with their students about the treaties pertaining to the land that Kansas State stands on?

Ron Parks 00:13

Well, I think, I think that the main thing to keep in mind here is the colossal scale of the land that was essentially taken away from the Kanza of people within unbelievably short period of time. You know, the tribe the first treaty that constricted the tribe to a reservation was signed in 1825 and then 48 years later, in 1873 the tribe was removed from Kansas and had no land whatsoever. And that happened with lightning speed. And we're talking about, well, the first treaty, I think, that Gus Chateau and George Sibley estimated in 1816, 1718, and that period of time that the Kanza more or less had access to or control of. I think the term that they use was domain of about 20, 20 million acres, and that included a little piece of what is present day, Nebraska, chunk of Northwestern West, western Missouri, and then, of course, a good part of the northern part of Kansas, all the way into what is today, the Western or the Eastern area in Colorado. So you have the Treaty of 1825, then reduced the acreage to 6 million. 6 million acres, I believe. And so you have a radical reduction there. And then, the Treaty of 1846 put the Kanza on the reservation in the upper Neosho river valley near present day Council Grove. And that was 256,000 acres so. And then in 1859 that particular treaty diminished the reservation, the Council Grove reservation, to about 86,000 acres. And so thinking in terms of both the area and the chronology of this, this is a massive displacement and reduction of the land that would have been considered the domain of these people. And I think that educators should be aware that it was done on an immense scale, and also it was with relatively lightning speed that these people were dislocated from the land that they had inhabited for several generations, and that, that that is traumatic for any kind of people.

Kinsley Searles 03:48

Okay, so moving on to the next question, are there any other relevant stories or documents related to these treaties that give us more perspective on this story.

Ron Parks 04:06

Well, thinking in terms of the treaties themselves.

Ron Parks 04:16

Well, there is, there is a really kind of strange, trying to remember the article number of the 1825 treaty that established the first reservation. That reservation was 30 miles wide, that is north and south, beginning just west on the west edge of today's Topeka, Kansas, okay in extending west on out to an undetermined western edge, but there was speculation that that probably originators of the treaty thought it was going to be they had waters of the Kansas River, which would be about 40 miles or so Inside today's Colorado. So that's a 6 million acre, very narrow and long piece of land, but on the eastern edge, starting on the western boundary of that reservation, the treaty called for 23 sections of land side by side, extending eastward on the north bank of the Kansas River, to be allocated individually to what they refer to as half breed Kanza, mixed blood Kanza. Most of these individuals were children or descendants of marriages between French traders and and Kanza women, okay, and and the idea was, as I understand it, the idea was that these particular individuals, because they were mixed blood, could be models for the rest of the tribe in terms of having their own plots of land or sections of land, because these one of them was given 640 acres, and because they were more educated and well versed in Euro American ways and the capitalist system, then they can be kind of an entry point for the tribe into adjusting to to the Euro American social, economic and religious systems. And the problem with that was that it really created a considerable amount of suspicion and division within the tribe and the there was a, probably a schism already existed between the mixed bloods who were much smaller group than the Kanza of this particular point, 1825, there probably were anywhere 1600 1800 Members of the tribe, and we're probably talking about the 23 mixed flood sections that were given there. So you can see that, I mean, it's disproportionate in terms of population, but it also was heavily favored to the mixed bloods. And that was not pleasing. There was a considerable amount of jealousy and dissension. And the whole idea of distinguishing these people, as opposed to the mass of the Kanza of whole blood, I think probably, in retrospect, was a really bad idea and caused a lot of fractiousness in the tribe. So that's, that's one thing that I can think of, in terms of provision. The other thing, I suppose. Well, no, I have to wait. Do you want me to talk about the 1846 treaty a little bit, because I'm talking about the 1825 treaty in the 18 your question, you allow me to explore either one of those treaties? Is that right? Yeah. Specific. Elements that are unusual or quirky, the 1846 treaty that was signed at Mission Creek, just west to present day Topeka, in January of 1846 and the strange thing about that treaty was that the and it's a little bit hard to visualize if we're just talking about discussing it verbally, it can be explained much better on that but so you have this great thing along reservation that was approximately 300 miles long by 30 miles wide, okay, beginning just west of Topeka, standing all the way out into undetermined western boundary somewhere in Eastern Colorado today, and they came back the commissioners to arrange that treaty in 1846 said, Okay, Kanza, we want you to just truncate your reservation and turn over the eastern third. Of the reservation that was 104 miles from today's Topeka. Western edge of today's Topeka on out into what today would be Ottawa County, Mitchell County in north central Kansas. Communities in Glassville, Minneapolis, deltas would be close to where that that line would be, okay. We want you to to give up this land, and we will pay you $3,500 annuities every year a payment of $3,500 and in exchange for that, for 20 years, okay, that's how long that that was supposed to last. Wait a minute, grants that. I think I got that wrong. This is the 1846 treaty. No, this was, this was you're going to have to head out. This was the treaty where the government was going to give the Kansas $10,000 a year in annuities and, and that was going to last for 30 years, and, and, but they were going to have to give up this about 2 million acres on the eastern third of this reservation that they have set aside, and the government said that the tribe needed to establish permanent villages on out there on the eastern end of now they're significantly reduced reservation. So the reservation begins about where Salina Minneapolis is, and goes out again into present day Colorado, 30 miles wide, north and south, okay, and close to the new eastern boundary of this truncated reservation, you Kanza, are going to have to you establish your villages there. And we will provide a farmer. We will provide a blacksmith. We're going to set up a school for you. There'll be a sub agent that will come out and oversee the whole operation. We'll give you cows and pigs and chickens, and you know you need to settle into these sedentary arrangements, and then you can hunt on out your reservation, out to the West. And the end, during the negotiations, the Kanza chiefs objected and said, but there's no, there's no hard wood. There's no There's no right kind of timber out there. What they're talking about mainly this burrow and walnut out in that part of the country, and the Indians are suggesting that that there's a lack of availability of suitable timber for them to be able to build the fences to keep the livestock from running over their their gardens. These are horticultural people and and so, so that's the objection. Well, okay, so they write in to the one of the articles of the treaty. They say, okay, there will be an investigation of that part of the country to determine if there's suitable timber out there. If not, then we will relocate your villages somewhere close to that area. And as soon as we can find the timber and the water and that you know, the conditions where you can you can move into this new kind of existence.

Ron Parks 14:06

Well, okay, so there was even an expedition that was organized I headed out to the West. They got as far as today's Junction City, and got worried about the possibility of enemy tribes such as the Comanche. I think they were primarily, primarily worried about the Comanche and and and turned back and said, No, this isn't going to work. And they were absolutely right. Here was the problem with that whole scheme. And it was, it was, it was strange. First of all, there was suitable timber in that area. Okay, the surveys 1859 and 1860 and other observers, when they first settlers came into that area, there were large, rows of Burro and walnut along some of the streams, Pipe Creek, salt Creek, Solomon river, they did have suitable timber. The Indians who had hunted there for generations would have known that. White people wouldn't have had a clue about that and but the problem was that that would have put the Kanza out there a long way from the nearest military installation, which was Fort Leavenworth, which is at least 140 miles from where this place is. There's no room, no means of communication, and and they would have been out there on their own, essentially. And they would have been surrounded by very well armed hostile tribes, the Pawnees to the north, the Cheyenne, the Arapaho, the Comanche. Sometimes actually, by the 1840s the bands of Sioux were coming from the north, and there they're all hostile tribes. So they would have been delivered as a smaller tribe that can do. And by 1846 we're talking about about 1600 people, which may be, if you get 350 400 warriors, okay, they would have been mincemeat out there and and these tribes had been competitive for the bison hunting areas in the mixed grass regions of central Kansas. For a long time, particularly the Pawnees and the Kanza had a long standing enmity, so many vicious attacks on back and forth, raiding and war making with interludes peacemaking, which never seemed to hold up, but the Cheyenne by the 1840s became a major factor in that area. They had come from the north, and so it would have been an appalling situation. You could not have talked to any white official going on out there, because that was far beyond the so called frontier at that particular time we're talking about, you know, 1846 47 now, Kansas doesn't become the territory in 1854 so the whole scheme was nuts. I mean, it was a case where people sitting in their, you know, their desks, and Leavenworth in Westport, Kansas City area, who didn't know, didn't have a deep on the ground sense of what the reality that the tribe would face there 200 miles or 150 To 200 miles to the west, had dreamed up this, this schematic that had no chance of being implemented. And what's interesting in the records of the discussions is that the Kansas don't object to the Treaty on the basis of what I just discussed, the fact that they were going to be, you know, slaughtered out there, but that they they suggested that there wasn't sufficient timber. Which is, which is, and I don't, and I can't explain the reason for that, but that that shows up in the documentation. So those are, I guess, to answer your question in terms of two wrinkles that these treaties contained, those would be two examples. Now there's more to that last situation, because this caused immense confusion once the tribe moves to its Neosho Valley reservation in actually by 1847 the fall of 1847 they were getting established in villages near The Council Grove on the upper Neosho when white squatter settlers pushed into the area after Kansas became the territory in 1854 particularly from 1857 to 1860 there was a great land rush, and they more or less overran the Kaw reservation there at Council Grove, and when they were challenged by the government, saying, Hey, you guys are illegally occupying Indian land here, and you need to get out the the encroach. Okay, we're talking about encroachment, the response was, Well, look the treaty has got the end of the Kanza situated out there in in north central Kansas, you know, near again, where modern day Minneapolis and Glasgow located. They're not even supposed to be here. How come you put them here? And you know, in a technical sense, they're right, but in in the realistic sense, there was no way that they could have been put out there. So, I mean, it just is one cascading event after another that's based on people not really understanding or empathizing with the Kansas, actual situation on the ground, and in making decisions that then compounded the difficulties once, once this whole new complexity of Euro American settlement moving into Kansas, the kingdom became manifest. I don't know. Is that, that what we're supposed to be talking about here? Is that giving you too much information? Want me to simplify some

Kinsley Searles 21:13

No, that's perfect. Okay, all right, really awesome. I have some follow up questions based off of that. So in the first situation you talked about, you discussed the reservations for the mixed race Kanza, I'm curious. After in the next treaty, in the 1918 46 treaty, did they move with the Kanza or did they like integrate into American society?

Ron Parks 21:42

It appears that they, they did most of the Kanza who were awarded those sections in 1825, course, there was some attrition, there's some death and but a good many of them did follow the tribe when it was relocated to the Neosho Valley in late 1837 and and they were, they were when, when the Treaty of 1859 was implemented, there was actually provision that set Aside 40 Acres for each individual member of the Kansas tribe has their own land that they that particular individual owned. Okay, they called it alotment, and those, some of those people who were awarded the sections of the land in 1825, show up in the documents that missed who the Indians were, were and where their land was, the 40 Acres where that land was so, so and and actually, because They're having children, the Mixed Blood are having children, then you have this phenomenon where the size of the tribe as a whole, particularly in the transition to the new reservation, is shrinking considerable. There were 1600 Kanza when they went to the Neosho reservation. And of those 1600s we're probably talking about 20 or 30 mixed bloods. And by the time they are relocated to today's Oklahoma, then referred to as Indian Territory, in 1873 The tribe has shrunk to, I think, 533 full Bloods and 50 some mixed Bloods. And so you have a total close in time to the entirety in population. The tribe by 1873 is around 600 but you have the shrinkage that goes on, and there's a tragic story behind that demographic decline, but but the mix of bloods continue to play a role in in tribal politics, but they never do assume the chieftainships, the chiefs are all full bloods during the period of time that the Kanza occupy the Neosho reservation,

Ron Parks 24:42

one of the one of the mixed bloods is a guy by the name of Joe Jim. They called him Joseph James, and he was really young when he was given the reservation in 18 or the section of land on the north bank of the camp. This river between Lawrence in 1825 and when he he ends up being on the government payroll from, I think, 1859 to the early 1870s as the tribal the interpreter, the government interpreter. And so I mean that would be, you know, put him in a position of leadership and influence, but still, he was not one of the village chiefs. Those are all problems.

Kinsley Searles 25:34

Okay, what this is, this is related, but it's a little different. What was the role of the interpreter in the treaties? Were they like an objective source, or did they like insert some of their own biases?

Ron Parks 25:52

theOh, wow. That is really difficult to determine. Trying to think of the 1846 46 treaty. Who was the interpreter of that? I know Joseph James was the interpreter the 1859 treaty. And then, when there were a series of treaties that were never ratified in the 1860s Joseph James acted as an interpreter for some of those, but Thomas Huffaker, I think, baggled his way into that he was a white teacher at the Kaw mission, as well as he continued to be influential with the tribe, did learn the Kaw language, and from time to time, acted as a intermediary and functioned as an interpreter in some of Those treaty negotiations in Washington, DC that took place. You know, I feel like I better. I do. I do remember a criticism of Joseph Chang's role and the treaty negotiations. I believe that took place. I think there was like 1864 67 and 69 none of those treaties were ratified, but they were negotiated. And I I can remember that a criticism that was leveled at him by some American Indian official was that he did not have the depth of breadth of knowledge and the understanding of the context in order to provide solid interpretive to carry out his responsibilities as an interpreter. But you know, I'm afraid. I'm not, you're asking, and that's kind of a difficult thing to to discern as well. In terms, there are always accusations that interpreters, particularly white interpreters, of Treaty Negotiations, misconstrued, misrepresented, were biased and misled the chiefs. I don't remember there being any substantial allegations of that kind leveled at the interpreters. Joseph James, I do know that when, when the government was in the final process of informing the Kansas that they were going to have to leave Kansas, leave the councilville reservation and relocate to the Indian territory. The responsibility for the interpretation had shifted from Joseph James and to Malan Stubbs son, Addison Stubbs, who was 16 years old, believe it or not, at the time, but he had gone to school with the Indians there on the reservation, and had a capacity to learn languages, And he in reading the memoirs of Addison Scott, and they're fairly substantial, is one of the best ways that we have of getting a good view of what was going on there and in the late 60s and early 1870s he was very sympathetic for the Kanza and felt like that. the goverment had treated him very badly, and was so I think, in that particular instance, I think that that it's reasonably we can be reasonably certain that the that the interpreter was functioning in a way that was representative of the calls of wishes and perspectives and was able to communicate those effectively. I believe that, but just how Joseph James. Well, let me put it this way. I'm not aware of any of the Kanza chiefs objecting to Joseph James as the interpreter. So I know there were accusations that he was drunk part of the time and that he was not he didn't have the intellectual equipment to really navigate the kind of interpretive go between Functions of that particular office, but I think that there really weren't a lot of charges leveled against him of the kind that you're kind of inquiring about,

Kinsley Searles 31:35

good to know. And then just one more follow up question. In the second instance, you talked about how they are going to be given, like farming equipment and livestock, what was the Kanzas experience in that specific like, type of livestock and agriculture?

Ron Parks 31:56

Yeah, well, for one thing, both the 1825 treaty promised that same kind of thing, and the Kanza objected vehemently that those promised agricultural The animals and and the the tools and the expertise that none of that materialized, that that they have been lied to, that those particular aspects of the treaty were not fulfilled, and that continued to be a problem On through the 1846 Treaty and the 1859 treaty. They're probably following the 1859 treaty. There probably was a little bit more of a serious effort. Once they had lauded the land, the government appears to have made an effort, especially because the Quaker agents, once they became involved in the late 1860s in carrying out, trying to fulfill the government's promises. They did make a serious effort to get oxen and mules and plows and provide a farmer to help to the man in particular, to make the transition to agriculture. So I know there was a serious effort there, but before that, it was very much a hit and miss. One of the things that I can I can point out was one that when the Kansas were relocated to the Neosho Valley in 1847 and then the government kind of dithered and and then finally, in 1849 they sent an individual down to plow up at least 100 acres on the bottom ground there on the Neosho River Valley. And the it was either 1849 or 1851 the ground was too hard, and they couldn't. They couldn't plow the ground and and so here we go again. Another another year passes, and then there's, there's difficulties with the whole what the government was asking the Kanza to do was a major cultural revolution in terms of gender roles. Okay? Because the Kanza are horticultural people. They raised corn, beans, pumpkin, squash, later, watermelons, potatoes and some sunflowers. But. That is women's work, okay, and the women, I mean, when, when, when Thomas Day came to the Blue Earth village just right here, close to Manhattan, I believe that was in 1819, 1820, he said that they have about 100 acres in agriculture, and they're raising these crops, and the women are doing the work. Sometimes men will pitch in with some of the heavier work, but for the most part, it was women's work. Well, when they got to Council Grove and they began to try to provide some training for like the students that they Kaw mission to who are all boys, by the way, to become farmers, they ran into opposition from the old line conservative male hierarchy of the tribe, who refused that they weren't going to do women's work, and they didn't want their sons to do women's work. So that was, that was one of those, those solutions like, well, we need to get the Kanza to function as property owning farmers. And of course, males are the ones that are supposed to be doing that in the Euro American modality, anyway, and but they ran smack that into cultural barriers simply because of the hundreds of years of that being a gender specific role that's you know, they were never There were the government was derelict in fulfilling the you the the promises to help the Kanza become successful farmers, but also there were, there was not a reciprocity on the part of the of the Kanza, particularly all The way up until the late 1860s early 1870s and then there were serious attempts by Kanza males to begin to learn to farm, but that by that point, the game had disappeared, and It was becoming increasingly difficult to access bison, I mean lands in central Kansas because of European settlement, and also because the enemy tribes continue to be against to Kanza. And so it was a very difficult transition, but there were years in the early 1870s where there were successful crops raised by the Kanza and the man were were involved in some of that, but just to what level is a little bit difficult to measure. Okay, thank you.

Kinsley Searles 38:19

Moving on. So the next question is, what are some landmarks of note? And why are these landmarks important?

Ron Parks 38:28

You know that related to the cancer? Then, right? Yes. Well, I mean,

Ron Parks 38:37

there are two Kanza of only sites that I think are notable, and one would be Wakanda springs, or spring this is located about 20 miles to the west, present day Beloit. Just inside the Mitchell County line. And it was a unique land form. It was on the just to the north of the Solomon River, and it was on the valley floor. I think it was about 150 yards to the north of the river channel, close to where the North Fork and the South Fork, the Solomon, the confluence there. And it was this kind of irregular, conical shape form, I think, a line, something called ever time, ever team, and it came up off the valley floor. I think, Oh, I think they measured anywhere 40,41, 42 feet above the valley floor. Yeah, it was like 300 yards wide in one direction at the base, and maybe 400 450 yards wide at the other in the other direction at the top, there was a pool of water 5055, feet in diameter. And but then the top was also kind of flat, and the pool measured, I think one point, someone measured it 35 feet deep. And so, okay. The point being that this is, this is strictly from a topographical point of view. This is a unique feature. This is a singular feature on the plains. You're not you don't have anything like this, other than right there at Wakanda spring, the water, apparently there was an artesian well principle where the underlying geological straight over the the Dakota formation, sandstone formation, and that created artesian pressure, which then surfaced and as it came up over the years, at least 6000 7000 8000 years or so, it the calcium carbonate and other chemicals precipitated into this kind of a mass of stone, limestone, like stone, that then began to form and the Crete into this, into this mound. So this then became a a holy site for not just the Kanza, Wakanda, by the way, is the name of the the Kanza Supreme Being, which is all pervasive kind of cosmic energy and consciousness that infuses all matter, okay, and and kind of a pantheistic religious form. And so I mean to name the place, Wakanda spring is, I think, significant, significant. And so the tribes would the Kanza, but their enemies, the pawnees, the Otoe, Omaha, even the tribes that were relocated from the east part of the United States into eastern Kansas and put on reservations, such as the Potawatomi, the Kickapoo, the Sac and Fox, all these tribes revered this place and sensed it as being sacred and as a portal to the spiritual dimension that almost all the Indian tribes believe pervaded all life, all matter on Earth And and so one of the one of the ways that this played out was that, as the tribes gathered there, they would throw objects, weapons or tomahawks, particles of clothing, various objects into into the water, as paying homage or making sacrifice to the to the Spirit. The Great Spirit spring is another way. And so this, this was, this is really significant to the people. And you can imagine, even long before the Kanza shows up, and the Kanza became a presence in this part of the plains by 1700s we know that for sure. What happens before 1700s a little bit murky, but they they immigrated out here from somewhere, and they probably be a wild river valley a century or so before, but you can imagine that probably this was a sacred site for people who lived in this area for hundreds and hundreds of years before the Kanza even got here. It's easy to imagine, but, you know, can't be, can't be documented that it's easy to imagine simply because of the singularity of its form. And so when you're all Americans moved in, capitalism began to to manifest and and they in the 1870s they bottled the water And sold it nationally. Is Wakanda. Wakanda water, I believe, is what they call it, and promoted it. And then in 1884 a kind of a spa opens up. They erected a four story hotel, and, all kinds of features that attracted people who, of course, the idea was that these springs had healing properties and that people could bathe in them, and that could be helpful for various ailments, and that function all the way through to the 1960s when United States government decided that they needed to put reservoir there and impounded The waters of the Solomon river a few miles downstream from where this is located, and of course, this inundated the the Wakanda spring itself, which is now several feet below the surface of The Lake Wakanda Glendale or dam, I think is also a name for that. And and so you have, you have a situation where an object of place of reverence turns into, well, it's destroyed, okay, even to the point this is the detail that is horrifying to me, even to the point where, when they demolish the hotel, okay, so you have great piles of limestone. It was made of limestone. It's a big building. I believe they said they had 48 rooms in there, and so you have a class the wood members and limestone. They took the trash, the construction debris generated by the destruction of the hotel, and hauled it up in trucks to the top of the mound and dumped it into the water, into the pool. So it's not like, I mean, the desecration is really profound in a situation like that. It becomes a trash pit on a large scale, and in some ways, I think it reflects the worldview, particularly the a more utilitarian and perhaps more callous view that our particular civilization has toward unique landforms that were then the source of reverence and all for the people that came the first people, Aboriginal people here. So in some ways, there's a very poignant story to be to be told there, and that that I think is, but that wasn't unique to the Kanza. There also is a

Ron Parks 48:34

at the confluence of a creek that runs through Topeka called the Shunganunga Creek, I believe, and the Kansas River near the little town. Name is escaping me now it's just to the east of Topeka, the Kanza. Okay. There was a pink quartzite rock. Was a glacial erratic that was brought, rolled down here by the glaciers, the glacier that penetrated further to the south, probably about 600,000 years ago, and then when the glacier ice melted these rocks called glacial erratics. This one, I think, is a pink quartz, very hard stone. This, this is it's left there, embedded near where Shunganunga Creek and Kansas River join. And it's 11 foot high and five or six feet in diameter, and it was apparently worshiped by the Kanza as a place possessing great spiritual energy. I. And it became an object of reverence, and once again, a portal to the deeper spiritual dimension that these people believe was invested in the landscape. Well, okay, so that that particular part of the story is identified by a fellow by the name of Dorsey, and then also elaborated on by a historian around the turn of the century by the name of George P Morehouse. There is a little bit of a wrinkle to this whole business, and that Morehouse has confused the situation a little bit by suggesting in one of his publications that the stone that was worshiped was a few miles away from where this stone was. So there's, there's a little there is, there is some confusion that surrounds this, and that should be pointed out in any consideration of this story. But so and eight in 19, see the 1929 I believe it was. The city of Lawrence is celebrating the 75th anniversary of this establishment. Of course, it was very for the earliest towns to be established at once, Kansas, King territory, 1854, and there was an attorney from Topeka that said, you know that that big glacial erratic that's over there at Tecumseh, let's bring that into the Statehouse grounds. It's part of the heritage of Kansas because it is a marker for the advancement of the Kansan glacial event that took place hundreds of 1000s of years ago. Well, the citizens of Lawrence who were planning their 75th birthday party for their city, heard about it and they they decided that they would work with the Santa Fe Railroad, which rolls right past where this rock is located, and using the railroad hoist and railroad engines and cars. They remove the stone, bring it into Lawrence and set it up right on the park there on the north end of Massachusetts Avenue. Of course, this is a major thouroughfair  and right just south of, I think it's the US Highway 59 bridge. It goes over the Kansas River, and there's a little triangular shaped park there called the Robinson Park. And then they attach bronze tablets to the stone, which lists the names of some of the founders of Lawrence, who came out there in 1854, and and that is what, is what became of the, you know, of the, I think Morehouse calls it, And then maybe Dorsey does too. The Big Red Rock, it ended up memorializing Euro American settlement, which is a monstrous irony, to say the least, in terms of how it evolved from a holy site, a great spiritual import to a celebration of the people who supplanted the people who once revised it. And so there's more of the story in terms of more recent development. I don't know if you want me to go into but that's that's the historical, historical background to it. So it's, it's like both of these examples, both, both sides suffered very similar fates, and that in their own way. Yes, so

Kinsley Searles 54:28

my next question is, how did current citizens form their opinions about land ownership?

Ron Parks 54:37

I'll do current you want to repeat that.

Kinsley Searles 54:40

See how did current citizens form their opinions about land ownership? Oh, wow.

Ron Parks 54:48

Mercy, currently you're about our peers. Then, yeah, okay, well, you know the whole idea. I. Of private property and and that, I mean, I know that there were Enlightenment thinkers in England, John Locke and other people who were advocated that one way of achieving independence was for the private property to to be owned by the people that lived on it, and then that's a way of becoming more invested in the society and and becoming a more loyal member of that particular society and and also prospering economically, and that would be more motivational. There are other there's a whole complex rationale behind establishing private property and making it accessible to the masses and and that, I think, was one of the truths of the Enlightenment in the 18th century. And so you have that in mind and people like Thomas Jefferson, that was when he was in the position of invalids of the United States government. I mean, he that was the whole idea was that what could make democracy work would be these citizen farmers who own their land and who taught themselves how to be productive in terms of the cross that they raise, as well as productive citizens of The of the state, and that became deeply ingrained in the American consciousness, so that by the time Kansas was settled in 18 well became the state in 1861 following the Civil War, you have an influx into the state of people who are deeply ingrained with the notion that they will own their 163 2080, acres, whatever it might be, and that this is a means of attaining independence and prosperity respect, and that this is highly motivated, and the government facilitated this process through the Homestead Act and timber culture Act and other ways of subsidizing people's entry into the land ownership. And so this has become, I think of paramount importance to the people, particularly who live in rural parts of Kansas and all across the United States, that one way of negating over weaning, tyrannical. Powers of the government and corporations is that you have your piece of land and you are invested with all kinds of legal protections on that land, and through hard work and smarts, you can, you can prosper, and that this is a way of protecting democracy and making the Republic more vital. You know, Jefferson considered these Yeoman farmers to be the backbone of a well functioning society, and so that that was, that's deeply, deeply ingrained in the consciousness of rural Kansans. And so you it's a highly individual, individualized notion. One of the weaknesses, it seems to me, is that sometimes what's good for individuals and their private property is not necessarily good for the collective or necessarily for the land itself. And of course, this was one of the main conflicts in terms of the Kanza and the context of our discussion, because the Kanza did not have this deeply ingrained notion of owning a property as a head of a household or an individual member of society, you would have your 48 Acres that the government tried to a lot to the to the east member of the tribe in the 1859 treaty that really did not that was a foreign notion to the Kansas who lived communally in villages and there was their economy was not the market economy. The economy was basically a gift economy where you exchange things and and your loyalty to the clan and you your identity was with the clan, and that functioned in a productive way according to the group, a more communalized kind of experience. So you have, you have a real contrast. But here's what's interesting about this whole thing, in terms of this deep, deep reverence for respecting the property rights of others, okay, that we're supposed to all be feeling as good old Anglo Saxon settlers. Well, when you come into Kansas in 1857 and the Kanza have got a reservation at that point, 20 miles square on the upper part of the Neosho River, and you are looking for a good place to settle down. You don't necessarily have much respect for the Kansas property rights, which are clearly defined by the Treaty of 1846 you move right in there anywhere from 250 to 800 individuals by 1860 61 are living illegally on the Kanza reservation, even though these same people are adamant about the absolute right that they have to protect their property rights. But that does not seem to extend to the okay, and that that kind of selective application of this revered principle is, I think, a particularly ugly aspect of our of Our heritage.

Kinsley Searles 1:02:20

Okay, that was a really helpful answer, and I just have one final question for you. It is in what way do you think current accounts need to be amended or changed?

Ron Parks 1:02:34

Current accounts? Yes, I current you're talking about, in respect to the Kanza in particular, yes,

Ron Parks 1:02:51

well, okay, I, I don't know in terms of, here's, here's the what my approach to this

Ron Parks 1:03:02

has been I came to the Kaw mission in in 1990 All right, and I served there from 1990 to 94 I went to Topeka, was a supervisor of the historic science from 94 to 99 and then returned To the Kaw mission 99 to 2004 and then retired that year, wrote a book that was published in 2015 the darkest period about the Kanza Indians. So here's I have not thought through real carefully, and this might be where your question is coming from, legislative or political acts of compensation or redemption, that that really isn't my angle into All of this. So my my answer is going to reflect that. Now, there are other people I know that are more legal minded, political minded, that that I think are you know, have looked at that question and would have much better answers than I. Here's what I do know in terms of my participation in this whole process. We as Kansans need to know this story. We need to really get it integrated into the our understanding of who we are as Kansans, and who we have been, and that's where my efforts were directed, whether that's small groups, individuals coming into the front door the Kaw mission to be receive an orientation, or some of the program. Events that we originated, such as the voices of the wind people, outdoor pageant that takes place, I think, still in council Grove every two or three years, various programs, various opportunities that I had to give talks to organizations that this story that we, you know, we haven't done a comprehensive discussion of it, but we've, we've touched on some aspects of it that this story needs to be known because any actions we take, be they, legally, politically, economic, whatever, whatever the arena, will be a much more sound basis if we have the understanding of How our particular culture treated the indigenous peoples that once resided in this state that was ended up bearing their name, if we know that story, and we know some of the injustices that were perpetrated by our Culture onto these people and whatever we do going forward is going to be more equitable and just a better informed policy decisions that politicians and policymakers can come up with. That part I do know, and that's the part that interests me, and that's why I wrote the book. That was the meaning of my being a curator of the Kaw mission. And even to this day, you know, we're discussing these various aspects, and I still forms of getting people's attention is something that literally lies right on under the ground that they are standing on, in terms of the residue of the history of those particular events that took place here in this place we call Kansas and and this is a, this is a part of that story that really needs to be felt, that's that's the best I can do.

Kinsley Searles 1:07:34

Okay, thank you so much. Everything that you said is very helpful, and I really appreciate your time a lot before I let you go. Do you know of any other people or who are like, familiar with the cancer, who I should talk to?

Ron Parks 1:07:58

Yeah, I think I mentioned maybe in the email Kinsley that right now her name is terrible at names, Professor of Anthropology here at K State who's done considerable work, he did a really great article on the the Kanza village, as well as the Sibley village over there, where she she thinks it was in Johnson City. Lauren. Lauren is it? Laura Ritter Bush, yes. Lauren Ritter Bush, was I should know right away. Enter, edit this out. I don't have any say this anyway. She is actually more knowledgeable than i in terms of what happened in the Kansas River Valley in the earlier period. My focus is the last 25 years, the cans of being in the state should be great. She's worked with the pride, very knowledgeable, very conscientious. And I think, I think you'd find her to be actually better informed than i in terms of the over your period. And then Pauline sharp, who is a member of the Kansas tribe, and she's been very active, has developed a first person interpretation of her grandmother, who was a chief of the Kansas tribe back in the teens and 20s, 1920s and speaks with a great deal of authority and knowledge about her people's history, and she also has got access to some of the other people in the in the call nation today that could help you out considerably. I. Know she's a close friend of Jim pepper, Henry, I think he is the vice chair of the call nation. He would be an excellent person to interview and but I would recommend going through Pauline and in getting to gym, perhaps, that would probably be the best way to do that. Deb, she's done a lot of video interviewing both cans and other people. She's right. She's in the in here at K State, there again my terrible recollection of names is coming into play, Deb Deb prior. Deb prior. She would, she has interviewed a number of the Kansa and she has done a lot of work, and she would be a very good, good source for you in this regard. Now, I really have not worked closely with the tribe for a number of years now, and so there's been turnover there, and I don't have a lot of contacts. Now, when I was at the call mission, it was a different deal, but there's been a lot of change take place in tribal leadership and peaceful position. So those will be a few people I think that could help you out. I know there's a gentleman, believe me, lives in Lawrence, who's come on.

Ron Parks 1:11:44

Curtis Tabby, I think is his last name, Pauline. Could tell you about him, but I think he's considered one of the tribal elders, and is considered a real spokesperson for Kansas history, and I think that he would be a good contact for you to check this calling of that last name, again, Pauline, would I think be a real good entry point there for Mr.

1:12:28

Okay. Well, do you have any other questions for me?

Ron Parks 1:12:32

No, I don't think so. I'm starting to wear down here,

Ron Parks 1:12:40

but I appreciate your very kind and you asked very good questions, and appreciate what you're doing. I'm really pleased that you're taking an interest in this story and that I think, as you can tell, I think it's an important one, and so I really appreciate the work you're doing, and best of luck to you and I, you know, I'm busy researching another another part of Kansas history right now, and hope to do a book in a few years, but if I can help you out, and let me know, I'll see what I can do.

1:13:19

Okay, well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time.

Ron Parks 1:13:23

Thank you. Bye.