^{This transcript is lightly edited to remove some repetition.}
SPEAKERS
Justin Lane (Kaw Nation citizen), Lisa Tatonetti (K-State settler scholar)

Lisa Tatonetti  00:01
Hi, Justin, I'm going to start us out, I'll introduce myself and have you introduce yourself. I am Lisa Tatonetti. I'm with Kansas State, where I teach Native lit, and I work on the Kansas Treaty Project with the Chapman Center. We were super excited that you would talk to us. The plan is that I get your consent for recording our conversation. We'll then, over the next couple of weeks, transcribe it, share it with you, and you will be able to let me know if the whole thing is oka, or not. So you're in control.  

Justin Lane  00:45
Okay.

Lisa Tatonetti  00:46
Great. So do you want to start just by introducing yourself?

Justin Lane  00:51
Sure. My name is Justin Lane. I'm a citizen of the Kaw Nation and I work in education with tribal youth.

Lisa Tatonetti  01:03
Great, that's fantastic. That was one of the reasons that we were really excited to talk to you, because the hope is that this project is going to be ongoing and growing and can be used in educational contexts for both Native and non-Native students and the public to learn more. In part, the project started when thinking about the conversations around land back, and the conversations about land grab that have come out. I thought I'd start by saying, I live and work in Kansas, in Manhattan, and most of Kansas and Manhattan is Kaw lands. That's just the reality of it. And what I find is, very few of my students come in knowing that. And so I thought maybe we could talk by talking about land, what are your thoughts about land back or land, and generally, what land rights mean to you.

Justin Lane  02:12
Okay. I would say that, historically, land is one of the most important things on Earth. Land, water, that sort of thing, and the resources it provides. The reason that so many Native tribes were displaced when colonization came, was for land.

Lisa Tatonetti  02:43
Yes.

Justin Lane  02:43
So obviously, Western culture values land vary greatly. And there's also you know, a Native side to that. Natives value land, also, but from a different point of view. So a lot of I think, identity comes from the land and traditions come from the land. Depending on how you get your food from the land, the animals you hunt from the land, that sort of thing historically. As far as reservations, and continually decreasing the size of reservations to nothing. I think that for the Kaw Nation, it has been taken to even more of an extreme, because once the Kaws were moved to Oklahoma, and their land was—the reservation was divided up into allotments—a lot of the tribe lived in a town that was in the way of the government building a lake. So even that land got taken away and we're forced in the late [19]60s, early [19]70s to move again. Even though it wasn't a reservation-type issue as before, it was still land that was taken and we're forced to move again. So, you know, it--land--is important.

Lisa Tatonetti  04:58
And it's a complicated history. I see what you're saying with the Kaw particularly. It's interesting, coming at it through the work we've been doing in the treaties, you repeatedly see these promises that are like, "And this land is yours now forever," you know? Until there's another movement or need for — well "need"—you know, desire for a dam and a recreation area. So yeah, that's a really powerful story, and, and I think a good example of kind of how that non-Native greed for land keeps going. It's not like ended in the 19th century. In thinking about this, one of the things that we talk about in the project is the way that that taking of land that you're talking about, then took resources from people. You mentioned hunting, and so it created what today we can talk about is health disparities. And I know that as someone with a history in the medical field, you have knowledge about like, what that means. Could you comment on the ties between, health disparity and colonization. So people will be coming at this project through history, but know this is not just stuck in the past?

Justin Lane  06:32
Right. So as far as health disparities go, related to colonization, I would say that taking a people whose diet is a certain way—basically game meat and some vegetables and then gathering—to give them flour and lard, it's going to affect your health. So, in turn, we see today a lot of disparities related to obesity, related to diabetes, that sort of thing. I think—I haven't seen the data myself—but I know that there's been research into how humans' genes react to starvation. So, when someone is starved . . .some genes are silenced, some genes are activated, so that their bodies will store as much energy as possible. So those genes, that silencing and that awakening of genes, or turning them on basically, has been inherited from the 1800s, when there was a lot of starvation. Then Native people now, their metabolisms aren't what they should be. So, in turn, it creates a lot of obesity and diabetes and heart disease and hypertension, that sort of thing. So, there's that. A lot of it goes back to food. And today, not for the Kaw Nation, really, but for a lot of other tribes that live on reservations, there's the food desert. So maybe they can't eat healthy vegetables, or whatever, because they can't buy them. They can't find them there.

Lisa Tatonetti  09:13
Yes.

Justin Lane  09:13
So that's, in my opinion, I think a lot of the health adversities come from diet diversity.

Lisa Tatonetti  09:24
I think that makes so much sense, what you're saying; our bodies remember our histories, and keep reacting to that through generations. I mean, I've read some studies on that as well. And that's really interesting to think about--what that means when we're thinking about the history of colonization. It's not just this forced food change to more unhealthy foods, but also this memory that's causing your body to react in certain ways. So that's really interesting and it relates exactly to the sorts of things that we're talking about that were happening where we are now. . . .

So relatedly, I know that many, especially non-Native students or community members. might not know what IHS, or the Indian Health Service is, what its goals are or outcomes. So in thinking about you as a health professional, and thinking about talking about health issues, can you talk a little bit about IHS?

Justin Lane  10:34
Well, IHS is formed, was formed by the US government, and is an acronym for Indian Health Service. And basically, it was formed because treaty, there's a treaty right of health care for Native people. So this is something that you can kind of think of it as Native people have already paid for this health care, through their land. So it's something that the United States Government still owes for, for that land. And it's very underfunded. I believe that per capita, the prison system in the US spends more on prisoners' healthcare than the government does on Native health care.

Lisa Tatonetti  11:42
Wow.

Justin Lane  11:45
The quality of the health care, I think is substandard. A lot of it has to do with budgeting, the lack of funding. Yeah. Clinics, but no hospitals, that sort of thing.

Lisa Tatonetti  12:07
So this seems directly related to kind of the health issues that you were talking about before. So if there's a problem with the healthcare system, it can can potentially aggravate that.

Justin Lane  12:25
I see, from my personal experience, a lot of treatment like ambulatory emergent treatment, or, or, you know, treating case-by-case or problem-by-problem, and not treating, and not considering preventative health techniques.

Lisa Tatonetti  12:54
Mm hmm. And that seems like such a such a cascading issue. If folks weren't taught those in school, and then now are the ones in charge, that prevention then isn't going to spread. I think that's really interesting. And I also think that again, a lot of people who might watch this or read portions of the conversation wouldn't have that knowledge.

I also just want to highlight what you said--that this is not a gift. IHS is something that was paid for, for example, by the entire state of Kansas being taken. Yeah. I taught, before K-State, I was in Wisconsin for four years. And there was there's a lot of history about fishing rights in in Wisconsin. There definitely was some bitterness here or there that my students had inherited. And so I don't hear it as much here, but, there, I would hear from non-Native students, about "special rights," like special benefits, as opposed to the point you're making that this was bought and paid for many, many times over.

Okay, so my next question, again, I'm thinking project specific here. The Treaty of 1825 and 1846, which is what we have now, between the Kanza people and the U.S. Government, has provisions about where those treaty funds will be allocated. And so, the Kanza are required to use their own money for education. So, article five of Treaty 1825, for example, puts aside—this is a quote:
"36 sections of good land on the Big Blue River" — and that's where K State is now — "for the purpose of raising a fund to support schools for the education of Kanzas’ children within their nation." 
So there's a big history here. And you're a current educator today. As an educator, could you talk about the goals of white-run schools and what this means to you as a Kaw Nation person and an educator now, when you think about why was this put into the treaties? And what did that education look like?

Justin Lane  15:31
I can see a couple of different points to make. One being that education, as far as what the U.S. government feels is education, you know, in 1825, that wasn't reading, writing, arithmetic. That was trying to change culture. So it was that type of education. It wasn't education that we think of these days. But from my point of view today, for me, education is extremely important. And I think educating Native people is important, and can be difficult, because they're different belief systems, different priorities that Native people have than a typical U.S. citizen.

Lisa Tatonetti  16:56
That's interesting. I think what you said about that, historically, the demands that these schools were trying to change Kaw culture, in this specific case, is really powerful. I think about one of the interviews we did with Ron Parks, who was talking about the fact that at the Kaw Mission they were forcing Native young men--you know, boys--into the field for agriculture, which was not culturally what boys did. Women did the agricultural work. So it was this demand that, it's going to be like this, you know? And it's interesting to think about how that forced education again, in the same way, attitudes towards education could be handed down. And so when you think about, you….as an educator today, what is your goal as a Kaw educator who works with Indigenous youth? Or you can talk more broadly, what do you see as, as your hopes, your goals, right now.

Justin Lane  18:09
My goal at the grade school and middle school and high school level is basically to give the Native youth confidence. Because a lot of them lack confidence, when it comes to social interactions at school and schoolwork in general. They don't feel confident that they can do it. They feel like they're not capable of doing it when they are. And I think that instilling in them a sense of ambition and, to the ambition, of being able to do everything that they want to do, whether it's to be an artist, or whether it's to be a teacher, a professor, doctor, attorney--anything that they want to do is possible.  . . . And I would also like to help explain what I said earlier about cultural differences between Native people and white people as far as jobs and education. It's not uncommon in the health industry, if you're working in a reservation clinic, for Native people to rather see a Caucasian doctor and not another Native doctor. Because I think their confidence and their self-worth is so low that they can't imagine that a Native person has the [same] ability that a white doctor has. I mean, it's, it's complicated.

Lisa Tatonetti  20:36
Yes.

Justin Lane  20:37
You know? Yeah, their self-esteem is just so low.

Lisa Tatonetti  20:43
Yeah, and that connects like one of my next questions. We’ll then be to talk more broadly about Indigenous representation, because I think that connects to how kids see themselves, you know? So more broadly thinking about issues of representation, what were your experiences as a student? Were you, for example, introduced in school to Indigenous history or Kaw Nation history? Was that represented? And, , if not, what are your experiences as a Native person in a dominant school system of representation or lack thereof? Or, whatever you want to say about Indigenous people, Indigenous history, contemporary stuff?

Justin Lane  21:34
Yeah, I think that during my education, from elementary to secondary school. I think the only time that we talked about historically Native people was . . . I went to school in Oklahoma. So there's a requirement for like, a half year of Oklahoma history. And they briefly talked about the Native tribes that live here. And then in college, really not much--you kind of have to go out and seek it for yourself. I learned more about contemporary Native culture, I guess, contemporary history, like the ‘60s and ‘70s, the Native movements that came about during the ‘60s and ‘70s. And that sort of thing, from joining peer groups, Native organizations that call in college. And, in college, you will always hear that, "Oh, don't you go to school for free. You don't have to pay taxes," you know, things like that. Or that "You're only here in school, because you're Native." “You wouldn't have been able to get in unless you gave you were given that concession,” you know, things like that.

Lisa Tatonetti  23:21
That's unreal. I love Charlee’s comment—Charlee Huffman commented on that too, in a conversation where she said she said, "I wish those folks would tell my loan my student loan officers that I go to school for free."

Justin Lane  23:36
Yeah.

Lisa Tatonetti  23:37
So when you think about those experiences Well, first of all, I wanted to ask one more question. Did you ever have a Native teacher or professor as you went as you went through school?

Justin Lane  23:55
Not until I attended medical school. And the school that I went to, one of its missions was centered around Native health. And so they purposely hired Native physicians and Native PhD professors to teach. And that's the only time that I saw them. Growing up, until I moved out of Oklahoma and went to school and got a job, I never met a Native attorney, Native doctor, you know, anyone that I—things like that just seemed unattainable.

Lisa Tatonetti  24:51
Which connects so strongly back to what you're saying about how you're working with students and trying to instill in them this, this sense of confidence and belief and this larger understanding of ow smart they are. So it's cool to know that you're there as a Native educator to help break that cycle.

I have one last question and then I'll open it. In thinking again about kind of a broader, lots of students will watch this and non-Native folks of all types, what are one or two things you would want folks to know about the contemporary Kaw Nation. So this project works on history, but there's a lot more than that.

Justin Lane  25:46
I'm not really sure what I would say other than even though the tribe now is very small and culture, a lot of culture has been lost—that identity, that culture, and that language is still what holds us together. Still what we all have in common. And I see a lot of resources, like tribal resources, going towards cultural activities, and teaching, and preserving, and language activities.

Lisa Tatonetti  26:50
Yes!

Justin Lane  26:51
So I think we're strengthening our ties together by strengthening our culture and our language. Obviously, Native people are resilient out of necessity, and so we're still here in Oklahoma. And, you know, we don't live in Kansas anymore, but . . .

Lisa Tatonetti  27:30
Although you're buying land in Kansas.

Justin Lane  27:32
Yeah, some.

Lisa Tatonetti  27:37
I think that's powerful. Just even that to know that those cultural traditions continue; that the language program is growing; that the sorts of things that you're that you're sharing that this is, you know, that tie that you have, between and among Kaw folks. And that the nation has, that resilience is still going, you know, and you're a part of making that feature happen for Native kids, which is really, really cool. Well, those are the general questions. I didn't want to take up too much of your time. But those are the questions that I had. Is there anything else that you'd like to mention or talk about before we [end]?

Justin Lane  28:25
Let's see. I mean, one thing that I wish I had something more profound to say, but this is something that I tell my friends that are Native and are like, in medical school, medical school or college. You know, it's difficult; it's hard to get through, and you have your ups and downs, and sometimes you want to give up. And something that I've told several of my friends is that: your grandparents or great grandparents or and beyond--in the 1800s and such--didn't survive genocide so that you can quit college. You can do it!

Lisa Tatonetti  29:30
Yes.

Justin Lane  29:30
You know, they survived genocide; you can finish your college. Or do whatever you want to do.

Lisa Tatonetti  29:44
It's pretty profound actually. You know, that if you come from a people who overcame all this stuff, to use that as power. That's really cool. Thank you so much, Justin, for talking today and I'm going to stop the recording.